| cj |
: |
It's 9:00 Welcome all |
| Cindy |
: |
I was at the chat with David Lubar and I keep checking the site and David's and Professornana's lj's. |
| mdease |
: |
I'm also on the reference desk. I'm hoping it stays quiet tonight. |
| jenni |
: |
wow, that's great! |
| clautenb |
: |
Hi Lynne. Glad I'm not the only one new at this! |
| cj |
: |
Tonight we chat Ellen Wittlinger's SANDPIPER |
| cj |
: |
I am the moderator and David is our web wizard. and we are thrilled to have you here |
| cj |
: |
so anyone want to start? |
| lynne d |
: |
I have to admit when I started reading the book I thought "I don't know about this!" but aftedr the first chapter I was hooked. |
| jenni |
: |
gosh, it reminded me of a student i had last year! |
| clautenb |
: |
ANyone wonder if he attitude caused her actions or did her actions cause the attitudes? |
| jenni |
: |
hi jazz |
| cj |
: |
I thought it was interesting that this book and Rainbow Party came out at about the same time. |
| Jranelli |
: |
I liked the Walker right away. I was glad that's where the book started–with seeing the Walker "3 weeks before the wedding." (beacuse the wedding was such an important part of the story) |
| jenni |
: |
i was thinking about rainbow party while i was reading this one |
| jenni |
: |
hi gary |
| cj |
: |
Her attitudes–explain more |
| Jranelli |
: |
I had heard of Rainbow Party. Was there censorship discussion about this one also? I noticed the library where I live had it shelved in adult fiction (not YA). |
| clautenb |
: |
She was so bitter and down on everything. |
| clautenb |
: |
Excuse the pun |
| cj |
: |
Whoa, adult fiction? There was a lot of censorship around Rainbow party (even though the Party never happened) but not nearly as much around SANDPIPER |
| jenni |
: |
i don't know that she was really bitter. i think she just wanted to have fun and not be judged. sex gave her the control she liked to have (although she didn't think of it as sex) |
| Jranelli |
: |
Really? Wow, i missed the buzz about Sandpiper. Yeah, I don't think this fits in adult fiction… |
| cj |
: |
I think she wanted a boyfriend to start with |
| cj |
: |
I also think her attitude came laterr |
| jenni |
: |
well, she thought she wanted a boyfriend. she liked having something new to play with, it seemed like.  |
| cj |
: |
I really like your ? though, now that I am starting to think about all the things she has attitude about. |
| clautenb |
: |
Maybe not bitter. But unhappy. Unsettled. Restless. Uncertain. Her attitude was revealed later but maybe influenced her earlier. |
| Cindy |
: |
sort of the why she behaved the way she did? |
| jenni |
: |
hhmm… |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
While we do see an attitude, there is much to the story that has already transpired to create this attitude, a defense mechanism IMHO |
| jenni |
: |
yeah, she was uncertain. i like that. didn't really know what she wanted, but she liked the "newness" of a relationship |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
absolutely glad to be here |
| Jranelli |
: |
Defense mechanism in response to the emotional distance between her and her dad as her body matured? |
| cj |
: |
Look at a<br>ll the things she was unhappy with Mom, friends or lack of, dad, |
| jenni |
: |
that whole dad thing really bothered her. how he coldn't be comfortable around her once she had breasts |
| cj |
: |
Yes, a lot of stuff with the dad. Did anyone think her perception about her dad's awkwardness was right? |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
But mostly unhappy with herself. She is angry with Dad's almost sexualization of her. |
| jenni |
: |
yes! she was pretty bothered by the way he'd look at her |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
I think she sees more than is there, but she has been made hyper aware of her sexuality because of her "past" |
| David Gill |
: |
Our family knows a teen girl in a similar situation. She cuts herself as a way of control, rather than engaging in sexual behavior, but it's a way of dealing with her parents. |
| Jranelli |
: |
Do you remember one part–I think they were in the cemetery (Piper and Walker), maybe it was when she asked him to the wedding, and he said, "I know what you want from me" but that he couldn't give it. What do you think he thought she wanted from him? Something like acceptance/emotional intimacy came to my mind. But did anyone read that another way? |
| lynne d |
: |
regarding the relationship with Walker she liked the challenge/interest in someone who was not that eager to get involved with her |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
And I think she recognized a kindred spirit of sorts |
| cj |
: |
I think what she wanted most was a friend she could trust |
| Jranelli |
: |
Yes, I think that's how it started–a challenged. But then she did see him as someone trustworthy. |
| clautenb |
: |
I was surprised that the boys turned so evil and dark. Seemed extreme. |
| Jranelli |
: |
So he was saying that she couldn't trust him? that makes sense, since he couldn't trust himself and blamed himself for the car accident (and other things) |
| Gary |
: |
I'm happy we've gotten to Walker because he's one of the really interesting characters in story. I like Wittlinger's portrayal of him, What did you all think of Walker? |
| jenni |
: |
with walker, she saw someone who didn't want to only use her for sex, but also someone who seemed to be struggling like she was |
| lynne d |
: |
he really needed a friend too but was afraid of it |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
And is it not interesting that the person she turns to is someone she knew next to nothing about. She is clueless about how to really find trust after some of her problems. And Walker is such an unknown at first even to the reader |
| Marge Ford |
: |
I almost liked him better at the begining for that reason - mysterious |
| jenni |
: |
me too |
| cj |
: |
Walker was so very real, I wanted a book about where he grows next |
| Marge Ford |
: |
Walker reminded me, in spirit, of Stargirl |
| Jranelli |
: |
But I'm glad that she found out about him. Because that meant we got to know also. He made the book for me. |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
I liked him once I knew more of the reason I should feel empathy for him and his behavior |
| clautenb |
: |
Me too |
| lynne d |
: |
me too |
| Gary |
: |
That's one of the reasons why Walker is interesting–he's unknown. I agree that he loses a bit of energy as a character as we find out more about him, but by then I was connected enough to him to want to stay connected with his struggles |
| Jranelli |
: |
I trusted him as a character right away. As soon as he helped her with Andrew by just going along. I can see why she would trust him also, even though she really knew little about him. |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
Is the same thing not true for Piper as well? She is a bit of a mystery at the outset as well. Even her friends do not know her anymore. |
| cj |
: |
I can't imagine living with all of his pain and no family support, infact they were the pain |
| Jranelli |
: |
Nor her mother |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
Think of how many of our kids connect because they see themselves in Piper and/or Walker. |
| cj |
: |
Both Piper and Walker seemed to be in a transitioning period |
| Gary |
: |
Both outsiders. |
| Jranelli |
: |
(which maybe isn't unusual in a teen book, but somehow it seemed unusual for that particular family…seemed like each family member was striving for love but didn't quite know how) |
| jenni |
: |
both trying to stay away from the past |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
and it would be easy for both of them to lose hope and be destroyed by their lives |
| Marge Ford |
: |
I think there are several characters and plot threads that deal with definition of character/self. Piper doesn't even know who she is and even reinvents herself with her name |
| cj |
: |
Name a character who is sure of himself.her self |
| clautenb |
: |
Do you think kids whose lives are like this but without the happy ending would still want to read it? Should it be recommended when that's the case? What do you librarians think? |
| Jranelli |
: |
And the poetry–she finds herself in some ways through writing. ANd I noticed when she changed the way she signed her poems. |
| Nancy |
: |
i think she knows who she is, changing the name was a new beginning |
| cj |
: |
And Walker gave her the name |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
I do not think any of the YA characters are sure of themselves. Perhaps that is part of the appeal to me. No one is a Yoda. |
| Anne Gables |
: |
Thanks. Glad to be here. |
| Gary |
: |
Nana, I thought you were Yoda |
| cj |
: |
I think SANDPIPER should be rec to all middle and high schoolgirls, boys too, but girls seem to think oral sex doesn't cost them anythign |
| Marge Ford |
: |
I'm still not convinced she knows who she is but she is searching |
| Jranelli |
: |
I'm not sure this has a totally happy ending. They still have to go to trial and through counseling. I would recommend it because the end didn't feel all neatly resolved to me, but it felt hopeful–that people can improve their relationships. |
| Cindy |
: |
and their views of themselves |
| clautenb |
: |
Goop point |
| clautenb |
: |
Good point |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
I echo CJ's sentiment. After reading RAINBOW PARTY and STORY OF A GIRL I think YA authors have picked up on this as well. I have 2 teens here reading it now |
| jenni |
: |
most girls don't consider oral sex as sex. heck, my friends didn't either, when we were teens |
| Gary |
: |
OK, I'm jumping to new territory again, but what did everyone think of the poems in the book? |
| Nancy |
: |
the support they gathered from the "families" once their secrets were out was amazing, but I thought a bit unreal |
| bob |
: |
They exressed the way she was perceiving what had happened |
| cj |
: |
They did give me more insight, but I was tempted to skip them |
| lynne d |
: |
I would recommend it to kids who's lives are the same without the happy ending. There is always hope. Let them decide if they want to read it once they have had an opportunity to start. I liked the poems. I felt it showed kids how they can do that as a way of expressing themselves |
| David Gill |
: |
I enjoyed the poems. It was an interesting technique for revelaing character. |
| mdease |
: |
I loved the poems. I'm not a "poetry kinda person" and I thought they were great. |
| Marge Ford |
: |
At first, I expected them as "device" to be hokey, but they were pretty perceptive |
| Nancy |
: |
i liked the poems. I thought they captured her feelings well |
| jenni |
: |
i loved the poems…..heck, i can't write them, but i have some students who write like she does |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
I also think the poems, more than Piper's narrative, showed us how she was changing and growing and trying new things |
| clautenb |
: |
Give me prose anyday…. |
| Jranelli |
: |
I liked how the poems showed a depth to Piper's thoughts that her peers would not have been seeing. She could be perceived as shallow, but we as readers know she is not because we have access to her writing. |
| jenni |
: |
and, as someone mentioned before, she started signing the poems differently later on |
| cj |
: |
I loved the way her perceptions came through |
| Gary |
: |
I asked about the poems because, to be honest, for me they weren't the strongest part of the book. The voice sounded more like Ellen Wittlinger than Piper. She's modelling poems after all these great poets. Piper's smart, but. . . |
| mdease |
: |
As a teenager who wrote in a journal rather than talked about her feelings to someone else, I really liked the use of the poems as her coping device. |
| Nancy |
: |
they were therapy for her |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
but kids do just that, mirror the writing of others in their nascent attempts at poetry |
| Marge Ford |
: |
I agree - mayebe most teens would not have chosen classic poets, but they do like to model |
| Gary |
: |
I agree with the points about how the poems were useful. Yes, Piper needed them. I just didnt think they always sounded like Piper. |
| Jranelli |
: |
Gary, you're right. It might have been more believable if we'd has some knowledge that she enjoyedreading poetry also. Maybe we get some sense of that in her affection for her English teacher/class? |
| David Gill |
: |
I've read a lot of short stories that sound like O. Henry… |
| cj |
: |
at 15?? |
| Marge Ford |
: |
I did get that feeling of connection to English - and the fact that she tried to dummy down in English class, refusing suggestions to take Honors. |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
i've written a lot of derivative poetry myself–it is safer to follow the form and format at first and then to step out without a net |
| jenni |
: |
lol….i loved the scarlet letter at 15, so i thought the poetry connections for her character were believable |
| Cindy |
: |
a lot of kids write poetry that they never show to anyone–especially not their English teachers |
| cj |
: |
Anothr reason she wasn't excited about Honors is that he kids in that class would not have accepted her |
| Marge Ford |
: |
What did you think of the stability? of the adults - including Mom's friend? |
| jenni |
: |
mom's poor fat friend, adrienne? she needed some counseling, poor girl |
| Gary |
: |
Interesting comments about Piper's English class. Here again school isn't always the solution–as it many times isn't for young adults. But there are teachers who do make a difference. |
| bob |
: |
Amen |
| cj |
: |
Acceptance from teachers is not the same as acceptance from peers |
| jenni |
: |
good point |
| Gary |
: |
I'm class you mentioned Adrienne, Jenni. Poor girl is right, but she's another authentic character to me. I liked her place in the book. |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
come back to mom for a minute and explain to me how she does not come right home when she learns about what has happened to Piper |
| Marge Ford |
: |
I thought, with all their flaws, the adults were believeable |
| bob |
: |
She seemed to have it together when it counted |
| Jranelli |
: |
The adults may have been a bit of "stock" characters–hippy growing up (Mom), philandering dad, overweight and self-conscious Adrienne–but they do show that even adults don't have everything all figured out. |
| jenni |
: |
oh, don't get me wrong….i liked adrienne, but she really needed some self-esteem. i was glad that the friend liked her |
| cj |
: |
I agree Prof, who would stay that far away from a daughter who had been beaten and nearly raped? Bye-bye hubby |
| jenni |
: |
mom's caught up in her honeymoon/wedding stuff. even though piper was attacked, she doesn't come home because she's selfish |
| jenni |
: |
bridezilla. |
| lynne d |
: |
but caring, receptive teachers mean a lot, deep down, to kids; I thought the adults were believable |
| clautenb |
: |
for sure! |
| clautenb |
: |
That was for bridezilla! |
| ProfessorNana |
: |
i do not think mom is that selfish (gosh I hope not). I think it was so that Piper would have to do more on her own |
| Marge Ford |
: |
I did find that pretty awful! - I would have been on the next plane home |
| jenni |
: |
i was mad at mom for not coming home and leaving the honeymoon after piper was beaten |
| Jranelli |
: |
or she trusts that there are people there caring for piper. i didn't read it as selfish, i don't think… i don't think piper really wanted for her to come home, and i think mom knew that. her presence wasn't what piper needed. |
| Matthew |
: |
Thank you, glad to be here! |
| jenni |
: |
TRUE |
| jenni |
: |
i just kept thinking, "Why isn't mom on the next plane home? geez!" |
| cj |
: |
What did piper need |
| Gary |
: |
Piper needed a father |
| jenni |
: |
time alone to think…..ONE really GOOD friend |
| cj |
: |
Mom not coming home gave Dad a chance to step in |
| ProfessorNana |
